As promised, the Micheal Moore Jesus post
Jesus, Values, bollocks, gospels, justice, kingdom, life, media, politics, theology October 5th, 2009This article by Micheal Moore is really good. Don’t get me wrong, I am not what you would consider a fan of his. Even when I want to like him, I struggle to find him compelling. But when someone, anyone, gets Jesus right, I am committed to being the trumpeter. So check it out.
I actually have been a fan of Michael Moore, and now am even more so.
Not only does he “get it” in regards to politics, he also seems to “get it” in regards to Jesus. Kudos to him for speaking truth, even when people hate him for it. And Kudos to you for having the guts to trumpet what he wrote in this article.
Speaking truth, especially when that truth does not endorse the typical “American Christian” way of life…is a risky thing. For me, it has resulted in fewer friends…to be honest; however, the friends I do have seem to be more true.
I for one, would rather speak truth and be persecuted for it…than to keep my mouth shut and live a lie.
What?! He promised to try and stop it! Awesome. And I’m not really one to get into political issues, but even though he is right about the rich having difficulty getting into Heaven, it is not impossible. Simply because someone makes more money and doesn’t pay high income taxes doesn’t necessarily mean they are sinning does it? I know people that are lawyers and doctors, and they make huge sums I wish I had, but I also know that they don’t keep it to themselves. There is nothing wrong with having a good job. God put some of those people there for His purpose, don’t you think?
I do agree however that it is unfair that the lower class has a higher income tax and all.
I just don’t think that Michael Moore, or anyone for that matter, should be judging people about their selfishness. Seems a little hypocritical. I don’t see how he is speaking truth either, unless you mean factual truth.
I’m not a Michael Moore fan, though I feel like I want to be. But the truth is he is a huge hypocrite. How can he say he doesn’t believe in proselytizing when that’s basically his motivation in the public arena? Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t he have a system of beliefs about the world and isn’t he about the business of convincing people to think like he does on the topics he writes and makes movies about? It may not be historically religious but it certainly is moral, ethical, and belief based.
He is also as equally guilty of selective bible reading as fundies (read: fundamentalists) when it comes to modern political view points. If God was a socialist than explain the wealth of Abraham, Issac, David, Solomon, etc., etc. I don’t say this because I agree with Capitalism or greed, but clearly God is not opposed to the wealthy on the basis of wealth alone.
While he does raise good points, they’re mired in hypocrisy and straw man arguments. I trust his words about as much as Glen Beck’s.
@Levi: I would actually say that if someone is very wealthy AND not paying high income tax, in our society, I would be hard pressed to not call that sinful. That means that they are either exploiting a loophole or are breaking the law. Also, I am curious, if Micheal Moore isn’t fit to confront people on their selfishness, who is? And if no one is, does that mean no one should confront selfishness?
@Brendan: I am not sure he said God was a socialist, but rather that Jesus might have been the first one. Still, Abraham and Issac’s wealth was not gained on the backs of poorer people, and certainly not sustained by such. David and Solomon’s wealth (by virtue of the kingship) was certainly talked about by God and the prophets as a bad thing. Remember when the author of kings made a point to say that the king’s palace was bigger then the temple?
Of course, everyone of us would hardly stand up to the scrutiny we give Beck or Moore, but we all feel compelled to speak for what we believe. I think Moore happened to parallel my feelings about this subject in his article.
There’s a difference in confronting and judging I believe. Confronting is rebuke. God clearly says that we should rebuke our brothers in their wrongdoing. Judging is pointing fingers. We have no right to condemn people, when we ourselves will be judged for our sins by God.
I would like to re-state my view on the whole tax thing. Wealthier people do have a lower income tax percentage. Yet, how much money do you think that 1 percent is? More than most people make in their lifetime. If it wasn’t for the wealthy, our economy would probably be way worse than it is now because the government controls it all and it takes away the will to work hard. Now there are corrupt people. They do have the power to control how much they pay sometimes.
God never condemned being wealthy. He only said that it would be difficult for the wealthy because wealth is an idol. Yet, when Jesus died on the cross he paid the debt for all sin. So if a wealthy person who idolizes their wealth and is selfish becomes a believer and follower of Christ, doesn’t that mean their sin is paid for? And in the church there are plenty of wealthy people. How do you think churches are able to plant other churches and sponsor mission trips? I believe that God gave wealth to certain people for this purpose. To help His body grow.
And on your response to Brendan’s post, Jesus and God are the same, so to call Jesus a socialist would be calling God a socialist.
Jesus and God may be “one”, but they are not the same. To say Jesus likely had dark hair, a beard, and dark skin, is not the same as saying God does. Jesus was located in a specific temporal/spacial context. God is not. To say they are the same is a heresy called modalism (according to most theologians).
If Jesus did indeed die for all sin, then it is doubly bad, according to Paul, to continue unrepentantly in the same sin that Jesus was supposed to have died to save us from.
Regarding church planting and missions, neither God, nor the church, needs rich people to do either. I actually have experience in this last one, lol.
Regarding wealth: I agree that it is definitely possible to be wealthy and a Jesus-follower at the same time. However, I will say this: when the richest people in a nation continue to get richer and the poor get poorer, through no fault of their own, the system itself is sinful. Capitalism, by its very nature leads the rich and powerful to make decisions based on how much more money they can get, and hurting people on the way up is ok, because if you are rich, you can make rules that say it is ok to do that. That is sinful.
Okay then. Well I’m not going to argue anymore. Neither of us has supported anything, and really this is a little pointless. And I hope you’re not calling me a heretic with that statement. I don’t go to seminary or preach in a church so I don’t know all that much about theology and whatever. It’s simply an honest mistake, and I thank you for correcting me.
I have not found your posts to be pointless at all. I know mine can be, heh. I don’t call anyone a heretic. I was just pointing out that I have heard Matt Chandler speak about that before, and I thought you would want to know. I didn’t take it personally at all. I do appreciate your point of view, though, even as we disagree sometimes.
1 Timothy 6:17-19: “As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous, and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.”
Trinity –
Jesus and the Father may not be the same yet they are one, and unified. I have a feeling they don’t have meetings and hold a vote on who agrees with which economic policy. Calling Jesus a socialist, would infact infer that the Godhead endorses socialism.
Socialism -
I would also agree with Michael Moore in at least stating that Jesus may have more socialist tendancies than Free Market Capitalism, and He would not be the only Biblical figure to lean that way. Moses, Isaiah, Amos, and the first church in Jerusalem would all fit the bill. But if we’re looking to the Bible for socio-economic policy then it should be mentioned that no biblical character supported an open democracy for the populace. As Mark Driscoll put it “As I’ve studied the Bible, I have found more warrent for a church led by unicorns than by majority vote.”
Wealth –
You can’t claim that Abraham didn’t acquire his wealth on the backs of others, there is no support for that claim in the Bible. Conversley, you also can’t claim he was oppressive to his servants. But what we can understand is basic economics, the more people working under you the more money you make. I think a person would be hard pressed to deny that he took the lions share of the wealth generated by his “organization”. The nature of the servant/master relationship means the servants produce and maintain the wealth for their masters who are largest beneficiaries of said work. Supposing this work was physical or manual in nature then yes, his wealth was “gained” and “sustained” “on the backs” of his servants who were poorer than him. And considering these servants probably didn’t own any land or livestock of their own, I would be so bold to call those people poor. Were they well taken care of? Perhaps, but the Bible is silent on this issue so no difinitive answer can be given.
Beck and Moore -
James 3:1 “Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly”
Glen Beck (conservative) and Michael Moore (liberal) are two people thrusting themselves into the the public square with the intention of directing our nations beliefs, morals, ethics, and politics in their own directions. These men are leaders pulling at our nation to shape it into a country they believe will be successful. Their ideas require the utmost scrutiny, for these will be the ideas that effect the lives of millions upon millions of people. These aren’t men just stating what they believe, they are evangelists for their view points. They intend you to change how you think, buy, and vote. They are leaders and should therefore be held to higher standards than Joe the Plumber.
Conclusion -
The heart of his article was definitely near the heart of mine, I just felt like he did a huge injustice by poorly representing it with half truths and staw men.
When we look at the situation as it stands today it’s too easy to point fingers in every direction saying who’s at fault. Perhaps a more helpful perspective is to look at my role in the process.
What does God expect of me as a worker in today’s society? He would expect me to work hard and diligently. If I should choose to start my own company and work hard and diligently is God angry if my hard work succeeds? Assuming that I am not an oppressive tyrant, I assume God is happy for me. If my company continues to succeed at what point does it become sinful for me to run my company? If I give to God and help the poor with my income does it bother God that I also enjoy some of the fruits of my labor?
It’s important to realize that we are commanded to take care of our poor. To support them and love them. Also to be generous with our “unrighteous wealth.” So this is a call by God to everyone, whether it’s the middle-class, blue collar or the wealthy executives, to be generous with what we have and give back to the people who need it the most, and establishing community and fellowship.
Luke 16:9: “And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.”
Deuteronomy 15:4-8: “But there will be no poor among you; for the LORD will bless you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance to possess— if only you will strictly obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all this commandment that I command you today. For the LORD your God will bless you, as he promised you, and you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow, and you shall rule over many nations, but they shall not rule over you.
If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be.
recommended book on the topic:
God, Greed and Money
by Jay W. Richards
trumpeter? that’s weird. also, i’m having a little trouble with the idea of a system being “sinful.” care to expand?
Trumpeteer? Trumpet player? Trumpest? not sure what the correct term was. Sinful. not in the “i have chosen to break relationship with my God” way of course. But in the sense of sinful that means out of harmony with God, or something that is inherently bad for Creation. Example: forced child pornography. Of course, the idea doesn’t choose to be evil, or really choose anything at all, but its very concept is out of harmony with God and hurtful to God’s creation.